Interview
by Dean Kalimniou with Chris Moutzikis, Chairperson of the Pan-Macedonian
Association of Melbourne and Victoria.
Recently,
the speaker of the Greek Parliament stated that among other organisations,
Pan-Mac signed a letter addressed to the Greek government in which its members
were threatened with death. How do you respond to that claim?
I
think that the claim is a deliberate exaggeration. The letter urges the
government not to compromise on the Naming Dispute. I accept it further states
that the penalty for treason is death. We are not threatening to kill anyone.
We are merely pointing out what the legal penalty is for a possible act, like
saying: “Don’t park here, or you’ll get a fine.”
But
the Death Penalty was abolished for High Treason in Greece in 2005. So how else
is this letter to be interpreted? Did Pan-Mac obtain legal advice as to the
applicable legal remedies before drafting the letter? Does this letter, which
is factually incorrect, not damage Pan-Mac’s credibility vis a vis the Greek
government?
We
did not draft this letter. It was drafted by our sister organisation in America
and it was signed by all affiliated Pan-Mac Associations world-wide. We signed
to express solidarity with the world body, focusing mainly on our fervent
desire that there be no compromise on the Naming Dispute. We were not aware of
the legal issues, but I believe focusing on this small point takes attention
away from fact that we are on the precipice of a “solution” to this issue that
will be disastrous for Greece. This is what the Greek government should be
concerned with. It needs to justify its actions to the Greek people.
Pan-Mac’s
stance on the Naming Dispute is well known. Basically, you are against Greece
recognising FYROM by any name that includes the word “Macedonia.” In the letter
Pan-Mac signed, it is stated that such a compromise is tantamount to treason.
What is treason in your opinion?
Treason
is where someone deliberately acts against the interests of their country,
knowing that this is harmful for their country. We believe that recognising
FYROM as Macedonia or any cognate of that term is harmful for Greece as it
impugns the historical, cultural and ethnic character of that region, which is
vital for Greece. We believe that the government of Greece knows that to be the
case.
Pan-Mac
is a Melbourne-based organisation, albeit with an affiliation to a world-wide
body, which in reality, refers to America and a few other diasporan
communities. It represents people who are domiciled in Australia. Why should
the Greek government listen to you, on this issue?
If
this was an issue of domestic importance, I would agree that we would have
limited standing to express an opinion. However, this is an issue that
transcends the borders of the state of Greece. It goes to the core of being
Greek, affecting the identity of every single person identifying as Greek
throughout the world. Any decision made by the Greek government does not only
affect Greek citizens, but all of us. Given this is the case, I believe that
Pan-Mac has every right to express an opinion and encourage the Greek
government to adopt it. It is an opinion that we believe, is held by the
majority of Greeks world-wide.
Pan-Mac
is just one of many Greek organisations in Victoria. Why should the combined
Greek community listen to you? Why should we be bound by the pronouncements or
policies of Pan-Mac on the Naming Dispute?
Ever
since the nineties, Pan-Mac has been at the forefront of this campaign. We have
organised several mass community rallies, and never ceased our activism for the
truth, even when this was not convenient or politically expedient. In the
process, we have earned the trust and respect of the community. The outpouring
of support we receive on a daily basis, especially lately from younger members
of the community validates our standing. Furthermore, there is a convention
among community organisations here in Melbourne, that we are the organisation
that is best placed to formulate community policy on this issue, just as we
respect the Cypriot community’s right to articulate a policy on the Cyprus
issue. Pan-Mac, along with other community organisations, is an active member
of the Australian Hellenic Council, which is the mouthpiece of the Greek
community to Canberra on issues concerning our community. It has adopted our
position on this issue.
And
your policy is correct, whereas that of the Greek government, according to
Pan-Mac, borders on the treasonous. Why are you right and why is the Greek
government so wrong? Why is Pan-Mac so vociferously against compromise?
The
word Macedonia is inextricably linked to the Greek identity. The government of
FYROM, has over the years attempted to appropriate our historical heritage. It
has also made irredentist claims against Greek territory. We believe that any
use of a compound name that includes the word “Macedonia” merely reinforces
their spurious claims. Because the name is already used by those ignorant of
the history and context, we believe that for brevity, any prefix arising out of
a compromise solution will be dropped and the word “Macedonia” will used,
something that is unacceptable. This country must have a name that reflects its
own heritage, not ours.
Given
the above, why do you think that the Greek government is entertaining a
solution that involves the use of the term?
Quite
frankly, this is one of the most disquieting things about the issue. The Greek government
has not told the people why all of a sudden it has become urgent to solve an
issue that has been smouldering away for decades, nor has it explained why it
believes it is necessary to compromise by using a compound name when it is
clear the majority of the people would be against it. We don’t know what the
Greek government thinks it will gain out of such a compromise because they
simply are not telling us. We don’t know what pressure is being applied and by
whom, or why and this makes us fear that Greek government is being compelled,
for whatever reason, to act against the country’s own interests. We cannot sit
idly by and let that happen, without voicing our opposition to such a path. It
might be politically expedient for the present government, but it is disastrous
in the long term of Hellenism.
Is
this why you organised the rally as a means of expressing that opposition?
We
organised the rally to express solidarity with the hundreds of thousands of
Greeks in Greece who also held rallies. That is why we felt that it was
important to use the same format for protest as that used in Greece. We wanted
to be part of a chain of protest all around the world, sending a strong,
unwavering message to the Greek government that we are against their policy on
this issue, but also, that we are one, we are united.
There
are those who state that you only organised the rally because you felt
threatened by the rally organised prior to yours by hitherto unknown members of
the community. Specifically, that in the light of that rally, that Pan-Mac
would look weak and ineffective if it did nothing, given that others had
already seized the initiative before it.
I
don’t accept that view. At the time, we were doing what we always do:
deliberating with members of the community, obtaining a consensus for further
action and also liaising with the world-wide Pan-Mac body, so that our actions
had the requisite community support and were co-ordinated. In our experience,
which is extensive, we feel it is important to gauge events and consider the
outcomes of possible courses of action before committing to them.
And
do you think you were successful? The number of people attending was, by all
accounts, far lower than what was expected, especially compared to past
rallies. Does this indicate a community crisis of confidence in Pan-Mac’s
leadership on the issue?
As
part of a co-ordinated network of worldwide protest it was very effective. It
concerned the Greek government enough for it to attempt to downplay the
world-wide movement and grossly under-represent the numbers of those protesting
in Greece. Furthermore, I believe any comparison between the previous rallies
and this one, numbers wise, is unhelpful. There are many reasons why people
chose not to attend the rally, and they do not reflect in anyway upon Pan-Mac
and its reputation, which if anything has become enhanced over the past few
months. The fact that the Premier of Victoria recently, on more than one
occasion, stated that: “Macedonian is as Greek as the Parthenon,” a statement
which was first made by his representative at the rally, can be attributed to
the climate of understanding of the Hellenic character, engendered by Pan-Mac’s
activism.
So
why did people stay away?
Well,
times have changed since the nineties. People have less spare time and more
weekend commitments. Some expressed concerns about possible violence from
members of the FYROM-Australian community, a fear that was not unjustified
considering the appalling way in which some of their members conducted themselves
during their own rally. Others found the venue difficult to get to. Also, we
need to understand that these days, rallies are not the only means of protest
and comprise only one of many facets of our campaign. Compared with the
nineties, social media also provides an important forum for activism. There
were two significant things about the rally that have gone unnoticed and need
to be pointed out. The first is that the youth predominated, a most reassuring
sign of the vitality of our campaign. Secondly, that there were members of the
Armenian, Assyrian, Chinese, Indian, Russian and Serbian community present to
express their solidarity, showing that our outreach is truly a multicultural
one. Unity is vital.
On
the subject of unity, people in our community lately have commented on an
increasingly intolerant attitude displayed by the Pan-Mac executive and members
towards those who express different views on how the Naming Dispute should be
solved. They state that there is a dualistic, us and them, with us or against
us, patriots or traitors stance towards “dissenters” emanating from leading
personalities within Pan-Mac. Are those who believe in compromise traitors?
I’m
aware of this allegation and I believe it is disingenuous. We encourage debate
and discussion because a free and frank exchange of ideas is important. At the
same time however, we will not shy away from holding to our deeply-held to our
convictions and articulating our point of view. In the lead up to the recent
rally, Pan-Mac convened public meetings where a number of diverse views were
expressed by attendees. Some of those views were diametrically opposed to our
own. Nonetheless, we respect those persons’ right to an opinion and facilitated
them being heard. Some of our members feel passionately about this issue and
express themselves in a passionate manner. That is no way implies that others
do not have the right to put forward a view. However, we also have a right to
critique their views, if we think they are incorrect, or not in the national interest.
Democracy and debate work both ways.
One
of those persons who have articulated a position on the Naming Dispute that
differs from that of Pan-Mac is Professor Tamis, of the Australian Institute of
Macedonian Studies. What is Pan-Mac’s relationship with Professor Tamis? Has it
been damaged as a result of the difference in opinion?
We
respect Professor Tamis for the brilliant work he has undertaken over many
years in studying and promoting scholarship on Macedonian Hellenism. His research
on the history of Macedonians in Australia is extremely valuable and will prove
to be of enduring importance to the broader Australian historical narrative. We
look forward to the development of his further endeavours in the field of
historical research. As for his views on the Naming Dispute, I reiterate that
Pan-Mac believes that everyone has a right to their own opinion.
The
Australian Institute of Macedonian Studies has recently announced that it is
seeking legal recourse against those persons/entities responsible for the
atrocious acts of racial hatred committed against Greek-Australians, by some of
the attendees at the FYROM-Australian rally, held a week after your own. Is
this not something that Pan-Mac should be doing, or at least supporting?
I
agree with you that some of the incidents of racial vilification and
intolerance at the FYROM rally were unprecedented and deeply disturbing. Our
rally was peaceful and we made sure that it was focused on the Naming Dispute,
not against the FYROM-Australian community. There were no racial slurs, or
pejorative sentiments expressed against that community. In contrast, with them,
we witnessed the burning of the Greek flag, racist placards against the
descendants of victims of the Pontian Genocide, derogatory slogans about the
Greeks’ ancestry and even attacks on a Greek store owner. I am astonished that
those responsible are so immature and given to hatred that they are willing to
disturb the harmony of our multicultural and tolerant city and even make the
streets of Melbourne unsafe, in order to pursue their goal. As a result, we
have responded favourably to a proposal of mediation by the Victorian
Multicultural Commission, in order to ensure that such terrible acts are never
again repeated. We are currently engaging with this process, affirming our
commitment to a peaceful and tolerant city.
There
are many families in Melbourne that because they have either intermarried into
both communities or come from regions where their ethnic identity is in flux,
are experiencing significant emotional upheaval at the moment, as a result of
the Naming Dispute. What guidance if any, has been provided by Pan-Mac to such
persons, during this time?
You
are right, this latest phase of the dispute has caused a lot of tension and has
harmed interpersonal relationships and friendships. I’m aware of situations
where family and friends have stopped speaking to each other because of this
issue. I find that deplorable. To those who have come to us for guidance, and I
need to stress that this includes both people that identify as Greek, and as
FYROMian, we have urged them to put the dispute to one side and engage with one
another, to relate to each other as human beings. We need to focus on the
things that unite us. There are many. We share similar customs and traditions,
our music is similar, we share the same religion and our histories are
intertwined. This does not mean we cannot share our views on the dispute but if
we do, it should be in a respectful and appropriate way.
Recently,
the leadership of Pan-Mac has changed. You have been appointed chairperson.
What are your aspirations for Pan-Mac moving forward?
Structural
reform is necessary if Pan-Mac is going to effectively meet the challenges of
the future and remain relevant to emerging generations. Currently, Pan-Mac’s
structure does not address the fact that the vast majority of the Greek people,
including those coming from Macedonia, no longer feel represented by small,
regional brotherhoods. This needs attention, especially since we receive a vast
amount of support from youth who are not represented or do not participate in
the groups that traditionally constitute our Association. I would like Pan-Mac
to be able to better utilise the tremendous groundswell of support it enjoys by
people of all walks of life, making more of our extensive contacts within the
academic world and especially in local, state and federal government. Greater
attention needs to be paid to social media and modern forms of communication.
New and novel ways to get our message across are already being trialled. We can
always enhance our engagement with the broader mainstream community while also
maintaining our close ties with our own community. The recent addition of the
Thessaloniki Association as a constituent member of Pan-Mac both underlies the
enduring relevance of our Association and acts as blueprint for the future.
Let’s
assume that tomorrow, the Naming Dispute is solved. I want to moot two
scenarios with you. Firstly, the Greek Government compromises and accepts a
composite name. Here in Australia, the government has stated that it will
accept any outcome agreed to by Greece.. What will Pan-Mac do? Will it ask the
Australian government to go back on that commitment, which has been the focus
of the Greek community’s lobbying up until now? Is there a contingency plan?
Have feelers been made out to the relevant politicians in this regard?
There
is constant communication with stakeholders, on all levels. We do not resile
from our position and are prepared to campaign with greater vigour against any
unfair outcome, should this prove necessary. We are already circulating a
petition to the Australian government that we encourage everyone to sign.
I
understand that petition is in response to a FYROM-Australian petition calling
upon the Australian government to recognise FYROM as Macedonia. Why is it
necessary if the government’s stance already precludes recognition of a name
not acceptable to Greece? Isn’t that just duplication of the work already
achieved by the Australian Hellenic Council and other community groups? And
what if the response is disappointing? How will that reflect upon Pan-mac’s
grasp of strategy and credibility?
Times
and policies can change easily in response to pressure and expediency. We want
to ensure this does not happen. To date, we are satisfied with the response and
encourage all Greeks to sign the petition.
Let
us assume that by some stroke of good fortune, the Naming Dispute is solved by
means of FYROM accepting a name that does not include the term “Macedonia.”
Does that make Pan-Mac redundant? Where to from there?
That
outcome would be great. Redundant? Not at all. Our aim is to promote Macedonian
Hellenism and make it relevant to the country in which we live. A solution to
the Naming Dispute would enhance our ability to seek new and novel ways to make
lasting contributions to the multicultural fabric of our society, as Macedonian
Australians. What is inspiring is the interest we receive from younger,
hitherto disengaged members of our community. Many tell us that it was through
Pan-Mac’s work that they discovered the relevance of Hellenism to them.
Periodically, we even have members of the FYROM-Australian community contact us
because they are questioning the veracity of what they have been told by their
community, through their reading of reputable historical research. We want to
build on that.
Finally,
I’d venture to say that apart from the pressing urgent domestic issues of
poverty, economic crisis and institutional decay that plague Greece, there are
other “national” issues of immediate importance to Greeks, such as the Cyprus
issue, given that part of the island is occupied by a foreign army, or the
crisis in the Aegean. In Northern Epirus, we have a large native Greek
population living within Albania, that does not always have its human rights
respected. In the case of Macedonia, we have none of these immediate problems.
And yet Greek concern on these issues, save for those who come from these
regions, is minimal. What is it about Macedonia that has been able to fuel the
passions of the Greek people to such a great extent?
Possibly
it is because Macedonia represents one of the greatest and most important
period in Greek history. I’m not just referring to Alexander the Great and the
enduring awe in which he is held by the Greek people. Rather, it is because it
was only through Macedonia that the concept of Greek unity was achieved and it
was only through Macedonia that Greek civilisation was able to engage as an
equal with those around it and spread, creating the prototype for
globalisation. It is this blueprint for a world-wide Hellenism, a Hellenism
that transcends borders that is a relevant paradigm for us as a diasporan
community. I think that this vision, realised by the Macedonians has been
espoused by all of us and that is why Macedonia is at the core of our Greek
identity. It is also why we react so strongly when it is threatened. That being
said, you are right in stating that the other issues you mentioned are also
important and we support and enjoy excellent relations with the Cypriot
Community and the Panepirotic Federation.
DEAN
KALIMNIOU
kalymnios@hotmail.com
First published in NKEE on 7 April 2018